tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post8393935488252226442..comments2023-05-07T18:48:51.835+03:00Comments on CRISPost: The Scientist's CreedCrisPosthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18235297221162707450noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-31407232905505477342012-01-15T08:33:48.219+02:002012-01-15T08:33:48.219+02:00@Spiros Kakos
I did not mean to end the conversat...@Spiros Kakos<br /><br />I did not mean to end the conversation. I thought that one specific issue, what is science, came to a satisfactory closure point. I was wrong even about that, as your last comment proved. :-)<br /><br />The issue regarding dreams remains very much open.CrisPosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235297221162707450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-33216607662114353252012-01-15T08:25:01.363+02:002012-01-15T08:25:01.363+02:00I did not define science in such a way. Did you?
...I did not define science in such a way. Did you?<br /><br />My definition is: "what objectively works".CrisPosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235297221162707450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-86774786899044587362012-01-15T00:57:29.022+02:002012-01-15T00:57:29.022+02:00And I will gladly put an end to our conversation w...And I will gladly put an end to our conversation with just a minor (but truly important) clarification: It is not true that "I consider astrology a science". What I said is that "If science is defined as the systematic search of what will happen with specific methods, then there is no OBJECTIVE way to categorize astrology as non-scientific". Thanks for the good conversation. Spyridon Kakoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12084446078067279374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-25431902309758019282012-01-13T18:08:25.134+02:002012-01-13T18:08:25.134+02:00Very well put. Had astrology confined itself in pr...Very well put. Had astrology confined itself in predictions which can be objectively verified even by skeptics, such as eclipses, if the verification was as positive, I would consider it a science.<br /><br />Kamateros also wanted to do good, and he had a method, his water and directions on how to use it. He also had followers that would testify that he was right. Would you agree then that, CrisPosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235297221162707450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-65145656749492129442012-01-13T18:02:46.484+02:002012-01-13T18:02:46.484+02:00I do not object to the dream world.
I'm under...I do not object to the dream world.<br /><br />I'm underlying an essential asymmetry between the two, which justifies the preference of a model that accepts the AW as real and the DW as a simulation within it, rather than vice versa.<br /><br />I don't deny that the reverse model might also be viable (although I have my reservations). My argument is that it is not as simple.CrisPosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235297221162707450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-15879924972972802642012-01-13T02:43:31.885+02:002012-01-13T02:43:31.885+02:00Regarding what is science and what not:
Remember ...Regarding what is science and what not:<br /><br />Remember though that in the old days astrologers predicted eclipses (astronomer is a relatively new term)... And if astrology has good results in prediction (according to its followers it has) and if it uses methods (the fact that you disagree with them does not change that) makes it a science!<br /><br />You can define "science" any Spyridon Kakoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12084446078067279374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-84604401442196743852012-01-13T02:35:47.322+02:002012-01-13T02:35:47.322+02:00Regarding dreams:
I cannot understand why you can...Regarding dreams:<br /><br />I cannot understand why you cannot accept a dream world where everything is defined within the dream, i.e. a complete world. Why do you believe that everything in awake is defined with terms from awake (proof?) while in order to use simulation (for example) in dreams you have to invoke some kind of "out-of-the-dream" data. It really looks like a "this Spyridon Kakoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12084446078067279374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-69885138382939176202012-01-11T15:56:36.102+02:002012-01-11T15:56:36.102+02:00@Spiros Kakos
Regarding what is science and what ...@Spiros Kakos<br /><br />Regarding what is science and what not:<br /><br />All sectors have their scope. So does poetry... I'm not denying that astrology is useful. Apparently it is to a lot of people. As long as we agree astrology is not science, I'm satisfied. Do we?<br /><br />The claimed role of astrology includes control in the sense of accurate predictions. That means it aspires toCrisPosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235297221162707450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-38022310200511057712012-01-11T10:03:42.990+02:002012-01-11T10:03:42.990+02:00@Spiros Kakos
Regarding dreams:
No, it's not...@Spiros Kakos<br /><br />Regarding dreams:<br /><br />No, it's not that at all.<br /><br />The simulator is an AW experience and concept, true?<br /><br />If I assume AW to be the real world, I can explain what a simulation is by invoking experiences (the simulator) completely existing within AW, without invoking DW at all.<br /><br />The converse is not true because to explain what a CrisPosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235297221162707450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-72708528201388952872012-01-11T01:05:11.725+02:002012-01-11T01:05:11.725+02:00Regarding dreams:
I do not get your argument. You...Regarding dreams:<br /><br />I do not get your argument. You are saying that we cannot dream of simulations? Is that it? Where have you concluded that?Spyridon Kakoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12084446078067279374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-26858538197179875812012-01-11T00:17:56.285+02:002012-01-11T00:17:56.285+02:00Regarding what is science and what not:
Then you ...Regarding what is science and what not:<br /><br />Then you must acknowledge that each sector has its scope. The role of astrlogy for example is not to create inventions (neither does true science I would say but that would drive the conversation too far...). So you must judge its fitting into the defintion of "control, prediction and verification" in its own field! Correct?Spyridon Kakoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12084446078067279374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-44289714239302329392012-01-10T13:12:34.616+02:002012-01-10T13:12:34.616+02:00@Spiros Kakos
Regarding dreams:
Brilliant attemp...@Spiros Kakos<br /><br />Regarding dreams:<br /><br />Brilliant attempt! I do mean that. My compliments.<br /><br />It does not work unfortunately and the reason why is that it just reinforces my argument of asymmetry in favor of AW.<br /><br />'Simulation' as a concept, when based on AW, is understood based on notions and experiences lying entirely within AW. DW does not contribute CrisPosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235297221162707450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-73757948035193366382012-01-10T10:22:43.636+02:002012-01-10T10:22:43.636+02:00@Spiros Kakos
Regarding what is science and what ...@Spiros Kakos<br /><br />Regarding what is science and what not:<br /><br />I did not invoke the example of a thunderbolt. Electrical lights were s e t - u p in accordance to scientific discoveries and explanations. We don't just see a light going on. We m a k e it so (control).<br /><br />If that doesn't strike you as essential, I would suggest you refrain from using science based CrisPosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235297221162707450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-59170294004504313192012-01-10T00:40:44.368+02:002012-01-10T00:40:44.368+02:00Regarding dreams: Why can't you dream of a &qu...Regarding dreams: Why can't you dream of a "reality" in which you are sitting in a simulator?Spyridon Kakoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12084446078067279374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-61953928268780404502012-01-10T00:40:03.031+02:002012-01-10T00:40:03.031+02:00You have confused the "light going on" w...You have confused the "light going on" with science? How is that? Why only science can take advantage of that reality which everyone sees (i.e. scientists and non-scientists as well)? Science provides scientific models. We see a light going on. Science interprets that via electrism (a completely HUMAN-MADE idea). Other attribute that to God. So? The fact pre-exists all explanations and Spyridon Kakoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12084446078067279374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-56311273976916588452012-01-09T10:40:44.880+02:002012-01-09T10:40:44.880+02:00@Spiros Kakos
Regarding dreams and reality:
I...@Spiros Kakos<br /><br />Regarding dreams and reality:<br /><br />I've already expanded on the asymmetries of the two 'worlds'.<br /><br />Still, I'll gladly follow your lead. What does 'simulation' mean in the 'Dream World' (DW) ?CrisPosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235297221162707450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-50157258854203495222012-01-09T10:16:37.714+02:002012-01-09T10:16:37.714+02:00@Spiros Kakos
Thinking that something works, astr...@Spiros Kakos<br /><br />Thinking that something works, astronomer or astrologer or anyone, may be enough for them, which is fine. It's not enough for anything to be c o n s i d e r e d s c i e n c e though.<br /><br />For the 'science certification' to be provided, it has to work for e v e r y o n e, remember? Even for skeptics. Not just for positively prejudiced individuals. The CrisPosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235297221162707450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-68743311596181411372012-01-08T21:35:02.752+02:002012-01-08T21:35:02.752+02:00Regarding dreams and reality:
Why can't you t...Regarding dreams and reality:<br /><br />Why can't you think in the reverse way regarding the simulation model? What is the "real time"? The one you decide?Spyridon Kakoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12084446078067279374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-5381872390377315392012-01-08T21:33:59.388+02:002012-01-08T21:33:59.388+02:00But every astrologer thinks that his model works. ...But every astrologer thinks that his model works. And people for whom the model works go again and again to the same astrologer...<br /><br />Your (or mine) subjective opinions do not matter in that.Spyridon Kakoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12084446078067279374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-92098120366639478422012-01-08T20:42:53.687+02:002012-01-08T20:42:53.687+02:00@Spiros Kakos
Regarding Astronomy and Astrology:
...@Spiros Kakos<br /><br />Regarding Astronomy and Astrology:<br /><br />They are both empirical and are both concerned with control. Still only astronomy tests its results to verify that control is actually accomplished, that's why I don't consider astrology to be a science, at least not yet. It fails to follow articles 8 to 11 of The Creed.<br /><br />It w o u l d turn into a science if CrisPosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235297221162707450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-43007744105807942582012-01-08T20:33:19.295+02:002012-01-08T20:33:19.295+02:00@Spiros Kakos
"The blurring line..." is...@Spiros Kakos<br /><br />"The blurring line..." is very well explained by the "simulations" model. Both reality and dreams are simulations run in the mind. Reality is the simulation that runs in real time, while experiencing reality and serves mostly to survive it. Dreams is the off-line simulation which is disconnected from reality, and serves other purposes not definitely CrisPosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235297221162707450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-71874139349983946012012-01-08T18:54:29.847+02:002012-01-08T18:54:29.847+02:00Regarding astrology and astronomy:
If science is ...Regarding astrology and astronomy:<br /><br />If science is seeking the truth based on observation and verification via predictions you make, yes they are both science. Is there any other criterion I must take into account? Please guide me.Spyridon Kakoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12084446078067279374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-2668244061332809092012-01-08T18:50:09.594+02:002012-01-08T18:50:09.594+02:00The blurring line between reality and dreams is of...The blurring line between reality and dreams is of great importance: it shows that "reality" is really a mind game and not something "objectively real". How different are those two experiences? Not at all! Telling the difference is a matter of choice. This is not nihillistic. It is simply not being dogmatic. An interesting subject maybe for future posts... :)Spyridon Kakoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12084446078067279374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-65406451824815809222012-01-08T14:42:17.457+02:002012-01-08T14:42:17.457+02:00@Spiros Kakos
So I gather that you consider Astro...@Spiros Kakos<br /><br />So I gather that you consider Astrology a science, right? And as they are both concerned with analysis of the celestial objects, a similar one to Astronomy for that matter, correct?<br />_______<br /><br />In your words, ' "reality of the awake" can be blurring, confusing and not coherent...'. Very well said!<br /><br />It's this fuzzy reality that CrisPosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18235297221162707450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-492557240579506968.post-16992665917840120322012-01-08T13:50:16.613+02:002012-01-08T13:50:16.613+02:00Concerning dreams (addition):
Isn't the model...Concerning dreams (addition):<br /><br />Isn't the model "there is one reality" more simple than the model "there are two different things - dreams and reality"???Spyridon Kakoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12084446078067279374noreply@blogger.com